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LRAPER- ARMENIAN PATRIARCH MESROB II ON CNN-TURK
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LRAPER" Church Bulletin (issued on 07.10.2000)
Revd Drtad Uzunyan, editor
Ms Tamar Kochian, translator
Armenian Patriarchate
TR-34480 Kumkapi, Istanbul
+90 (212) 517-0970
+90 (212) 516-4833 fax
Divan@ArmenianPatriarchate.org
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CNN-Turk
"Question & Answer" (transcripts)
27 September 2000 21:15
ARMENIAN PATRIARCH MESROB II ON CNN-TURK
YAVUZ BAYDAR: Good evening from CNN-Turk. Today we will discuss a highly
significant issue. We will attempt to analyze the developments following the
Armenian Genocide Resolution adopted by the US House Sub-Committee on Human
Rights which is expected to be discussed by the US House International
Relations Committee. We will approach the issue from a very different
perspective, from the viewpoint of the Armenians living in Turkey. Our guest
this evening is His Beatitude Patriarch Mesrob II, the spiritual leader and
the top representative of the Turkish Armenian community with a number
exceeding sixty thousands. Your Beatitude, welcome to our programme! His
Beatitude Mesrob II is Patriarch of the Armenians for almost two years now.
He will share with us the views of his community about the latest
developments in Turkey. While you begin to prepare your questions, I would
like to bring to your attention an extremely sensitive point. This is your
programme. Your questions determine the programme. However we will deal with
a very sensitive issue today. His Beatitude is here to explain how the
Turkish-Armenian friendship could be strengthened. Neither he himself, nor
the community that he represents, the Armenians in Turkey, is in any way
related to this resolution - considered by the US Congress- which has
aroused a lot of indignation. The Patriarch represents the Armenian
community in Turkey, whose members are the brothers of the Turkish people
and whose rights are guaranteed by the articles of the Treaty of Lausanne.
You may pose any question you wish, but may I remind you to make a special
effort to consider the delicacy of this sensitive issue while asking your
questions.
Yes, and now the topics:
- How do the Armenians in Turkey view this genocide bill?
- How can the Turkish - Armenian friendship be strengthened?
- What are the expectations of the Armenian Community as Turkey has entered
the process joining the EU?
Yes, I would like to ask Your Beatitude a question while our viewers prepare
their questions. You have never been on a live programme before. You have
agreed to participate in a live programme for the first time in Turkey or
perhaps in the world and now you are here with us. This is a great honour
for us. We would like to thank you. How come you agreed to this?
PATRIARCH: It is to the Patriarchate, usually, that reporters come and ask
their questions. This is the first time that an Armenian Patriarch visits a
TV studio in Istanbul. I agreed to this because of the sensitivity of the
issue. I also thought that informing and enlightening the society was
important. Nevertheless, I would have preferred that a lay person from our
community had been here instead of me. However, we were unable to find
someone. But my presence here is largely due to your persistence. I only
hope those who would not like to see a cleric here are not very annoyed.
BAYDAR: Not at all. Your views are important not only for Turkey but also
for the whole world. The stance of an authority on this issue, which has
caused so much conflict, bears heavy weight. Our questions are beginning to
arrive. Alright, we have a web question via internet. Let's get that
question. Yes, OKAN GONULAY asks the following question: "How does the
Patriarch view the latest developments? Does he have a clear attitude on the
issue?" What he means, of course, is the Armenian resolution at the US
House of Reprresentatives.
PATRIARCH: My attitude in this respect is very clear indeed. I have already
announced my opinion through an official statement I published from our
Patriarchate. It was in Armenian, Turkish and English, broadcast through the
press and the internet, and I presume it reached all concerned parties and a
wide circle. The Turkish public read it in the press and on the TV.
BAYDAR: What was the main message?
PATRIARCH: I find these undertakings unnecessary. These are not pleasant
developments. If the Turks and the Armenians have a problem, it does not
look right when third parties place this issue on the agenda.
BAYDAR: Do you say this as the leader of a community? Or as a member of the
clergy? Is this a political message, or a citizen's message?
PATRIARCH: Firstly, as an individual citizen. I cannot say that I speak
officially in the name of the Turkish Armenians. After all, our community
does not have a central committee. However, because I am the Armenian
Patriarch, I receive many people continuously in our Patriarchate. As I
speak here now, I know what my people think and how they feel. I take their
pulse. I do pay attention to their disposition. To a large extent, my views
as an individual are on the same plain.
BAYDAR: Your Beatitude, now we go to Erzurum. We have a recorded question.
(TULAY SUBASI, on the screen): "Venerable Patriarch, we have lived together
as brothers in this land for 1000 years. Who made us enemies towards each
other?" This was Ms. Tulay's question.
PATRIARCH: It is said that we are peoples who have come to know each other
since the sixth century. Some historic sources mention a tribe called
"Haylanturk" that had come down from the north of the Caspian Sea towards
south and engaged in commercial relations with the Armenians and other
peoples in Anatolia. This would mean that the Turks and Armenians have known
each other since the sixth century, for a long time. It should be considered
only natural that friendships, conflicts and wars were lived through the
course of such a long history. These have indeed occurred in the past.
Today, when we consider Turkish and Armenian relations, we deliberate on
events that history has registered within the last 100-150 years. And I
think this is realistic. People usually carry the memory of later events.
Who spoiled our relationship? I think that, simply, consequent events
brought about the outcome. Let's be a bit pragmatic. The Nationalist
movement which took its start in France quickly spread like fire towards the
East. The monarchies were collapsing one by one... Nationalism in the
Balkans... Turkish nationalism... Armenian nationalism... This is all
interconnected. Also, the interference of the super-powers in the East,
largely due to their interest in reaching some natural resources in eastern
territories, and their tendencies to make use of indigenous peoples as pawns
... As a consequence, intercommunal problems were experienced. We should
approach the issue now with calm and common sense and...
BAYDAR: We are interrupted. We have an important telephone question. Mr.
Hayrettin, I understand?
HAYRETTIN ERTEKIN (on the phone): Yes. Good evening. First of all, may I
thank His Beatitude for his participation as the leading figure of our
Armenian citizens and brothers. Here's my question: Seventy-two thousand
Armenians live among us as brothers from the days of the Ottoman Empire to
the present. Would you explain whether you support the unfounded
nationalistic theses and genocide claims of the Dashnak and Henchak parties
whose members are all over the world?
PATRIARCH: Let me first tell you that even I do not know the exact number of
Christian Armenians living in Turkey, but apparently it is over sixty
thousand. This is more or less the present figure. There were some 154
thousand Armenians in Istanbul in the first years of the Turkish Republic.
For a short while, this population increased a little bit more. Then, it
decreased due to several reasons and we reached the current level. As for
politics, there are no such inclinations among the Armenains in Turkey
today. The Turkish Armenian community is one which is very apolitical
indeed. If you ask an Armenian on the streets of Istanbul what a Henchak or
Dashnak is, he or she would, probably, not be able to give you a definition.
As for me, I can tell you this much: I am a person who disapproves of any
extreme sort of nationalism whether it comes from the Dashnaks or Henchaks
or any other nation or situation. There is no nationality to Evil, in this
respect. There is no Turkish or Armenian evil. Evil is evil. It is common
knowledge as to what nationalism has done within the last 100 -150 years.
Once you open your gates and let it take control, what nationalism will do
is the same thing all over...
BAYDAR: The phone call interrupted when you were mentioning common sense...
It sounded like you were about to point out the dangers...
PATRIARCH: Yes, the dangers of nationalism. We have to approach events in a
calm manner. We should take care not to be easily influenced lest we should
fall prey to provocations.
BAYDAR: Here is another web question on line by DAVUT ASLANTAS. He asks,
"Who will gain if the Armenian resolution is adopted by the US House of
Representatives?"
PATRIARCH: I do not think that anyone will... Some will have their needs
satisfied in this way. Those who are after fringe benefits will get them.
After all, the moving force behind such an undertaking is simply interest,
whether in the United States or elsewhere. In the final analysis, this case
is being abused because we must also accept that there is the need for
psychological healing. There are people who are being exploited for this
reason. In fact, the genuine pain of people is being exploited. People have
died or their relatives have disappeared. Can anyone say that these things
did not happen? On the other hand, is it correct to irritate the pains of
these people to such an extent for political and strategic gain? That is so
inhumane...
BAYDAR: Here is another web question. SELIN DAGLI asks: If this resolution
is adopted by the House, how will it affect the Turkish Armenian community?
PATRIARCH: I should like to hope that it will not in any way. It is not the
Turkish Armenian community who advocated the resolution. On the other hand,
there are some who discreetly threaten and say that the Turkish Armenian
community cannot escape the consequences. I find that an offensive statement
for the citizens of this country! A gentleman who is a Professor Doctor
openly said in a TV programme last night, "Oh, do not anger the Turkish
Nation. You have previously seen what could happen if the Turkish Nation is
infuriated!" Now, what does he mean by that? Was that a threat? The
Armenians in Turkey are fine citizens of the Turkish Republic. They do and
should have the same rights with the Muslim citizens before the law.
Armenian citizens of Turkey ought not to be mistreated, humiliated or made
to feel insecure on account of a resolution that has been placed on the
agenda by others. On the contrary, all our citizens in Turkey should treat
them with additional care.
BAYDAR: Yes, the questions are flowing through the internet. "Has the
Armenian Patriarchate conducted any scientific research in order to reveal
the facts on this genocide? If there exists such a study, is there a reason
as to why it is not made public for the whole world to see?"
PATRIARCH: Look, we must not forget that the Patriarchate deals with
religious affairs and with the administration of our churches and other
communal foundations. We do not have time to deal with historical research.
That is the domain of the universities. There are so many universities and
academicians in Turkey. They should publish documents, commentaries, present
their theses and should open a worldwide discussion on the subject. I think
that asking the Turkish Armenian community or the Patriarchate to do it is a
bit naive. May I also add that in terms of Turkish-Armenian relations we are
a very vulnerable community. Whatever we say, we are usually accused of
insincerity by this or that side accordingly. We are both Turkish and
Armenian. When we make a statement, there will always be Turkish Muslim
fellow citizens of ours who will say "See, they say it because they are
members of a minority community." I know it well. Sometimes, they say it to
my face. On the other hand, whenever we say something abroad, the Armenians
say, "Oh, well, they live in Turkey. That's why they speak in such a
manner". So we are "vulnerable" from both sides... Therefore, especially
such historical and political initiatives should not be expected from the
Turkish Armenians.
BAYDAR: Please...
MURAT YESILKAYA (On the phone): Alright, regardless of whether this
resolution is finally adopted or not, how are we to approach the tragic
events lived in the course of history? What I mean is this: historians say
there were also countless victims in the ranks of the Turkish or Ottoman
Muslim people as well. Among the Armenians as well. Whatever the reason,
people - settled in our land, who were our citizens, whose security was our
responsibility - lived through tragic events. Many people lost their lives.
Can't we build a common monument in the name of all these fellow victims? I
mean can't one single monument be dedicated in memory of all the victims
instead of the monument built in Igdir commemorating the Turkish victims or
the monument built in Yerevan in memory of the Armenian victims?
PATRIARCH: Well, the erection of a monument or whatever other undertaking is
not the main issue here. But it is high time something is done. You are free
to choose any name for it, but that doesn't change the fact that a deep pain
has been lived. It has left such a pain, such a deep mark in the inner
consciences of both the Armenian and Turkish peoples. This morning, I read
in a paper that at this very moment there are some nine anti-Turkey
resolutions that await consideration at the US House of Representatives:
five of them are about the Cyprus issue, two about the Aegean problem, one
Armenian and one Kurdish resolution... But what is remarkable is that it is
the Armenian one that is suddenly the number one issue in Turkey. This has
only one meaning, that these events have left deep scars also in the
collective conscience of the Turkish people, as well as the Armenians. Now,
identifying it is not my business. I think this is a case that needs to be
discussed by historians, as our President (Ahmet Sezer) has advocated. This
case also concerns, naturally, all those who study different aspects of
human life, such as sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists and
theologians. Let's admit to the presence of a trauma. How shall we treat
this trauma? How can we remove it? How can be it be healed? How will a Turk
and an Armenian in the United States or in any other country be able to get
together, share bread, drink, participate in each other's grief or
happiness, share the joy of weddings and the pain of funerals. How can we
achieve this? Something must be done. This atmosphere has become a redundant
annual nightmare, and it causes impatience and disgust. I think it was about
three or four years ago when a reporter asked my opinion on this issue and I
said, "Wouldn't it be nice if all monuments of hatred were removed and only
one single monument had been erected, where Armenians and Turks could lay
wreaths in memory of all the victims?" Like the common martyrs' monument in
Canakkale today. Both Turks and Armenians can overcome this trauma. What a
profound grief! After all it's about blood and death. According to the
Sacred Scriptures of any religion, we are talking about sin! Breaking the
Divine Law is sin. Life is given by and belongs to the Creator, the Lord and
the giver of life. Anyone who claims another person's life by bloodshed is
committing a grave sin against the Creator, who only can give and take life
away. Murder is forbidden in the Ten Commandments. In the Gospels, Jesus
Christ says, it has been said, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever
commits murder shall be liable to the court,' and then he continues his word
by teaching that even slandering a fellow human being will be sufficient
guilt to bring us under judgement. Just think of the approach to human
relations... Therefore...
BAYDAR: Would you wrap up with a message??
PATRIARCH: My message is that this trauma should be treated.
Acknowledgement, confession and forgiveness are parts of any healing
process. This must take place. Whoever will, should go ahead and do it. At
least we should begin to discuss it...
BAYDAR: You mean, let's talk and take concrete steps... Well, let's try to
get a new question. An anonymous viewer asks by e-mail: " Turkey is a
secular country. So why is the Turkish Armenian community represented by the
Patriarchate which is a religious institution and why not by a board of lay
representatives?"
PATRIARCH: What a comforting question! As I said before, it would have been
so much better if a lay Turkish Armenian was here to represent the community
in my stead.
BAYDAR: That would have been a relief, wouldn't it?
PATRIARCH: A great relief indeed. But the question should have been posed
rather to our government leaders. Both of my predecessors, Their Beatitudes
Patriarch Shnork and Patriarch Karekin II of beloved memory, submitted
successive petitions to the government to ask for permission to re-establish
a central executive board for the Armenians in Turkey comprising of lay
representatives. The Patriarchs suggested that each parish council should
send one representative to form the central board which could take care of
the temporal affairs of the community and represent the community vis-a-vis
government departments. However, we weren't even given the right to have an
Advisory Council with lay members. I do have personal advisors, but not an
institutional council. The way things are, it is only natural that whenever
people wish to learn about the Turkish Armenian community the microphones
are usually extended towards my mouth. Well, if I do not accept, then it
could be taken as unwillingness or as a negative attitude on my behalf, so
at the end of the day, for the time being, I must do the representing. Whom
do I represent? All those Armenians in Turkey who are the members of my
church. If there are Armenians who remain away from the church and the
community, for them also I remain a moral leader.
BAYDAR: Clear. We have another recorded question. RIFAT SAIT asks: "The
Armenian Patriarch Mutafyan should be humane as a member of the clergy.
Apart from the claims of genocide against the Armenians, there are many
genocides presently taking place in the world such as the ones in Kosova by
the Serbians or the one realized by the Russians in Chechenia. How come the
Patriarch does not react against them as well? How come he does not protest
these massacres?"
PATRIARCH: I have personally attended quite a few interreligious dialogue
meetings, here and in Europe. Statements condemning bloodshed and war have
been signed. All religious leaders signed the documents which reasserted
that none of the Sacred Scriptures of any of the religions ordered their
adherents to shed blood, to wage war or to commit genocide. We have also
signed these documents. These have been published in web sites and in
electronic bulletins.
BAYDAR: Ms. Henika is on the line. Yes, please.
HENIKA KIREMITCI (on the phone): What will happen to the Armenian minority
community in this country? After all, we feel anxious here.
PATRIARCH: I really do sense an uneasy apprehension when I speak to the
members of our church living in Istanbul. With your permission, I would like
to say the following to all the Armenians living in Turkey and to all the
members of our church: Please, there is no reason for you to be anxious.
Trust the common sense of all the citizens of this country, especially of
the government. Do not feel anxious because you have nothing to do with this
resolution or with anything likewise.
BAYDAR: Another web question by EMRAH KEREMOGLU: "Would you think of sueing
the Turkish Republic if the resolution is approved?"
HIS BEATITUDE: Why should I sue the Turkish government? I am a citizen of
the Turkish Republic and perhaps I have had more service to the people of
this country than our friend who posed this question. If there is an
administrative error or anything that breaks the regulations, then I would
naturally seek my rights via the regular ways as a citizen. But, what's the
meaning of sueing Turkey? Why should I do this?
BAYDAR: Your Beatitude, do you have any influence on the Armenian lobby in
the United States?
PATRIARCH: I don't think so. As a matter of fact, just like the way our
Turkish Muslim citizens have an attitude of distrust towards us, the
Armenians living in America, especially the ones that are politicized, see
us as having been turkified. Even if there are some politicized Turkish
Armenians among them who have migrated to the States, they are very rare
indeed. Whenever we tend to make a suggestion, American Armenians will
usually remark, "They say so because they are under pressure." Hence, I do
not believe that we have any influence on the political lobbies over there.
Let me put it this way: It is secular politicians who exploit church and
religion, and not vice versa.
BAYDAR: We have a fax question. Do you support the membership of Turkey to
the European Union. Will the Armenians, and Turkish society in general
benefit from this?
PATRIARCH: As a citizen and also as a patriarch, I did, do and will support
the membership of Turkey in the European Union. The major reason is that I
should like Turkey to achieve contemporary standards. This process should
not be considered as a new period of reform (Tanzimat). On one hand our
cultural identity must be preserved, whilst on the other, there should be
peace, goodwill and harmony with the whole world.
BAYDAR: A final telephone question. NUR EREN (on the phone): "What do the
Armenians in Turkey expect from the government about this resolution?"
PATRIARCH: That which is expected by all the other citizens of the country.
I am not an expert in politics. I am sure that the proper authorities in the
government are taking the necessary measures. The government is responsible
for that.
BAYDAR: Thank you very much. His Beatitude, as the top representative of the
Turkish Armenians, tried to convey to us the sensitivities of his community
about the issue. He gave several important messages both to Turkey and to
the world.
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