LRAPER, March 26, 1999

Istanbul Armenian Patriarch, in Radio Interview, Discusses 
Current Issues of Armenians in Turkey 
By Talar Sesetyan 

SOUTH ORANGE, NJ - His Beatitude Archbishop Mesrop Mutafyan, the 
youthful new Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul, was interviewed by 
this reporter last Sunday on Armenian Radio Hour of New Jersey. 



Talar Sesetyan interviewing His Beatitude Archbishop Mesrob 
Mutafyan, Patriarch of Istanbul, during his recent one-week 
visit to New York. 


The Patriarch was in the metropolitan area to visit His Holiness 
Karekin I, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians, 
who is recovering in New York City from a recent medical 
operation. 



His Beatitude Archbishop Mesrob Mutafyan, Armenian Patriarch of 
Istanbul, flanked by Archbishop Shahan Sevaciyan (l.) and 
Archbishop Khajag Barsamian (r.).  


In the interview Archbishop Mutafyan discussed a number of 
substantive topics which included present-day Armenian life in 
Turkey, current issues relating to the Diaspora, and those of 
the Armenian Church in general. 

The Armenian Radio Hour of New Jersey can be heard every Sunday, 
2-4 p.m. on WSOU 89.5 FM. 

What follows is the unedited transcript of the interview which 
this reporter had the pleasure and honor of conducting with His 
Beatitude Patriarch Mesrob. 

The Armenian segment of the interview, which is not represented 
below, focused on the Patriarch's visit to Vehapar, concerns of 
the Armenian Church and the community regarding Vehapar's 
health. 

ARMENIANS OF ISTANBUL 

Q. What is the current state of Armenians living in Istanbul? A. 
If, by current state, you mean the statistics -- according to 
official statistics there are some 82,000 Armenians all over 
Turkey. However, that's not a very realistic figure -you have to 
subtract from that number 15,000-20,000 Armenians who are 
Turkish citizens and hold Turkish passports but who live in the 
Benelux countries and Germany. So, subtracting that number, you 
get a more real istic figure of around 60,000. Those are the 
official Armenians. Then you have many more thousands of people 
who are of Armenian descent but who are Turkish Muslims on their 
identity cards, especially in the Black Sea region in the 
eastern provinces of Anatolia. Of this number, some 20-30,000 
read, write and speak Armenian fluently but the rest feel more 
comfortable in using Turkish -- which is not peculiar to Turkey. 
We did not used to consider Turkey diaspora because of our deep 
roots and heritage and tradition; however, more and more, the 
Turkish Armenian community is showing signs of becoming a 
diasporan territory. 

[Furthermore], there are two daily papers [Marmara and Jamanak], 
which are published in Armenian with a circulation of some 2,000 
copies a day. Then, there is the bilingual weekly, Agos, 
published in Turkish and Armenian, which has a circulation of 
over 5,000. The Lraper (Bulletin) of the Armenian Patriarchate, 
published weekly, sometimes fortnightly -- also bilingual -- has 
a circulation of around 8,000 and is distributed freely in the 
churches. Then, we also have some six monthly magazines -- all 
in Armenian. There is a tendency to have new publications in 
simpler Armenian so that the youth will be attracted to reading 
these publications. Apart from these, we can add, the fact of 
some 38 churches functioning in Istanbul, governed by 33 parish 
councils, 19 schools -- 15 of which are Armenian Apostolic, and 
4 of them belonging to the Armenian Catholic community. We have 
20 alumni associations, and 18 choir associations and "tbrats 
tasses." Then the Sourp Prgich National Hospital in Yedikule. 
These are the main institutions we have in Istanbul. We have 
some small -- altogether 16 communities in Anatolia -- outside 
of Istanbul, the largest one being in Ankara and in historic 
Cilicia in the Adana and Hatay region. 

There are also worrisome figures we should talk about: According 
to baptismal and funerary records, the community is not getting 
larger or smaller, because the exodus to foreign countries has 
almost stopped. We even have some people returning to Istanbul. 
However, intermarriages are increasing -- and the rate is as 
high as 50% today, mostly among the college students. 

Q. Could you also address the economic and social standing of 
Armenians living in Istanbul? It is often said that Armenians 
living in Istanbul are second-rate or second-class citizens. 
Could you comment please? 

A. Well, economically we don't have any more tycoons left in 
Istanbul. Most of our really wealthy people have left for 
foreign countries during the last three decades; however, there 
are some 40-50 well-to-do people who are bearing the 
responsibility of underwriting most of the expenses of our 
communal institutions in Istanbul. 

I wouldn't say as persons per se Armenian citizens in Turkey are 
second-rate or second-class citizens. They have before the law 
equal opportunity in almost everything. I said "almost," because 
there are certain things, certain professions that Armenians are 
not allowed into. Although that is a silent arrangement. For 
example, they can not become commissioned officers in the army. 
They can not become police officers. But they can become 
politicians or parliamentarians, if they have the backing. They 
do become professors; they do become municipality officers. So 
as persons, as citizens of Turkey, they are not second-rate 
citizens. However, there are some problems, which we encounter 
as a community. So, Turkish citizens of Armenian descent, as 
persons, don't have a problem, but the Armenian community has 
some problems. But, again, that is not peculiar to Turkey. I 
would say that in every country that I know, there are 
minorities. And, in every country that I know, minorities have 
problems. And, so in Turkey too, not only Armenians, but also 
other minor ities of every type, be they ethnic or religious 
minorities, do encounter problems -- which the parliament has to 
work on. But, as a country that is going through a fast 
transitional period of course, usually the parliament is busy 
with the majority issues. And, when you have issues that 65 
million people face in the country, you wouldn't expect the 
parliament to busy itself with the problems that 60,000 people 
face -- to be pragmatic. However, I am happy to say that in the 
parliament, as well as council of ministers, there are 
commissions which are busying themselves with the problems of 
the minorities -- and I am hopeful. As we face the year 2000 -- 
the Great Jubilee -- and as Turkey is approaching membership in 
the EU, some of the problems that we are facing today, which are 
residues of the first decades of the Turkish Republic and the 
formative period -- residues from the one-party regime during 
the first half of the republic's history -- I hope these issues 
of the community will be solved, one by one. I would like, as 
the religious head of the community, to be hopeful in this 
sense, I do see a spirit of cooperation in the political 
leadership of the country, the way they meet us, and the way 
they discuss problems with us, and I appreciate the openness. 

Q. Could you briefly elaborate on the kinds of problems the 
community faces with the leadership? 

A. For example, a decision which was made in 1936, which is a 
wrong interpretation of the Lausanne Treaty, claims that 
minorities cannot own any new property other than what they had 
at the time when the Lausanne Treaty was signed. As such, in 
1936, the government asked the minorities to submit a list of 
all the properties they had, and the Armenian and other minority 
institutions did submit those lists. And, suddenly, in the late 
1970's another government came and said, "O.K., what you had 
submitted in 1936 is what you can own and anything else that you 
have re ceived after then you have to return." This is a 
nonsensical decision that has to be, in some way, remedied. 
Another, again nonsensical thing is that to be a member of a 
church and to be able to elect and to be elected in a church 
assembly -- you have to live in the quarter of that church -- in 
the geographical quarter of that particular church building. In 
other words, you're not free to be an official member of a 
church in NJ if you live in NY. In other words, you can attend a 
religious service on a given Sunday if you want, you can drive 
from NY to NJ to that particular church, you can do so every 
Sunday, but when the time comes for parish elections you're not 
allowed to be a part of that parish assembly in the church you 
attend and in which you worship. Why? Because someone says, you 
live in NY and you have no right to be a part of the NJ church. 
Well, that's very untimely. That's not a modern approach to 
things. And, that's restrictive -- it reminds you of the 1920-
1930's in any country. It's not a modern way of dealing with 
elections. There are these kinds of problems that have to be 
dealt with. 

INTERMARRIAGES 

Q. You mentioned the 50% rate of intermarriages, and we've also 
have heard about schools being closed, churches shut down, 
enrollment in schools decreasing. How does this endanger the 
community? 

A. Well, as I said, the community is not diminishing in numbers 
-- it is following a rather constant line right now; however, 
the culture is overwhelmingly Turkish. The TV is in Turkish; the 
higher education is in Turkish. Istanbul is a multi-ethnic, 
multi-faith society, although overwhelmingly Muslim and Turkish. 
And, whatever an Armenian child receives in an Armenian primary 
school setting is very easily washed away in a senior high 
school, in a foreign school, in a Turkish school, especially, in 
a college environment. And, where there are all sorts of 
different ethnic groups and cultural groups represented, 
intermarriage is a fact, like in any other country in the 
Diaspora. And, only after intermarriage, do young people tend to 
think about what will happen to their children. Not before 
marriage, but after. And, unfortunately, many young people are 
not ready to seek pastoral counseling before they get married. 
So, we have some 50% intermarriages right now. According to the 
established norms in Turkey and in many other Middle Eastern 
countries, if the father of the child is Armenian, regardless of 
the ethnicity of the mother, the child is considered Armenian 
and, by law, is allowed to attend an Armenian minority school. 
But, if the mother is Armenian, and the father is of some other 
ethnic group, then, by law, the child cannot attend an Armenian 
minority school. So, you lose a person from your community and, 
in this case, we lose twice because if the father is Armenian 
and the mother is Turkish, usually half of the children from 
those intermarriage families come to our minority schools, and 
because the mother doesn't speak any Armenian, whatever the 
child learns as a second language at school -- Armenian -- is 
not usable in the home. Then, if the father is not Armenian, the 
child cannot be enrolled in the Armenian school anyway, so we 
lose a lot of blood there. 

THE CHURCH 

Q. What role does the church play in the community and, as the 
84th patriarch of Istanbul, what do you personally wish to 
attain for the community there? 

A. Well, the church is the foundation of the community. The 
church provides the main leadership of the community, and 
everything that is Armenian and Christian can only be found 
around the church and in the church. And, without the 
Patriarchate, and without the church in the Turkish Armenian 
community, you can not talk of any community at all. And 
Armenians know that. This is why I would say, whether it's good 
or bad, whenever you enter any home, you will find 50% of any 
conversation centering around the church and the Patriarchate. 
Although the Patriarchate is only a spiritual leadership and by 
law has no bearing on other institutions in the community, the 
people know the important role of the institution, and whatever 
the law and the regulations say, they feel themselves bound to 
and responsible before the Patriarchate. 

What I wish to attain during my tenure as the 84th Armenian 
Patriarch of this historic city is, first of all, to preserve 
the heritage, to preserve the rich treasures -- the spiritual 
treasures that we have received from our forefathers -- for the 
future generations. The Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul has, I 
would say, three important missions. First, the universal 
mission of preaching the gospel, preaching the Christian 
message. Secondly, to provide pastoral attention and care to 
Armenians living in Turkey and on the island of Crete, which is 
under our jurisdiction. Thirdly, as one of the hierarchical four 
Sees of the Armenian Church, we have a responsibility in wider 
Armenian affairs, including Armenian Church affairs. So, we 
intend to keep the Istanbul Patriarchal See as an active center, 
which pays attention to all of these duties that have been 
handed down to us by our predecessors. 

Q. You used to be considered a controversial leader by the 
Turkish government. How do you feel about that? And, how are you 
seen today? 

A. Well, the Turkish government has never said anywhere that I 
am viewed as a controversial person. We have read this kind of 
material, only in ultra-nationalistic Turkish papers like 
Turkiye, Ortadogh, and Hergun and one TV channel called TGRT. 
But, we have also found out that most of this material was 
pumped to these newspapers and particularly to that TV station 
by Armenian dissidents in the community who were in charge of 
certain councils where there were controversial ways of handling 
church property. And, those dissidents were also the ones who 
were quite apprehensive about my election. They did not want to 
see, I presume, a more dynamic or energetic, younger leader who 
would poke his nose into what was going on in certain corners of 
the community. So, they wanted to use their connections here and 
there in the Turkish government. And, they were successful in 
delaying the elections. But, again, it was the Turkish 
government -- the chief leaders in the Turkish government -- who 
solved the problem and overrode the impasse and allowed the 
elections by declaring that it was not in the interest of the 
Turkish government to hinder these elections. And, that the 
Armenian community, according to its own traditions, in a 
democratic way, would elect the religious leader of their 
choice, and whoever they elected would also be accepted by the 
Turkish government as the Armenian Patriarch of Turkey. To that 
effect, His Excellencies Suleyman Demirel, the president of 
Turkey, and also the President of the Turkish national 
government, Mr. Hikmet Cetin, both sent open messages to the 
Armenian community a couple of days before the elections, which 
were published in our two dailies and our Agos weekly. So, the 
Armenian community members, with a free conscience, could go to 
the polls and elect their leader -- and they did. And, all the 
uproar before the elections and the delay in the election only 
caused more people to vote -- and, for the first time in the 
history of the Turkish Republic, we had 16,000 people going to 
the ballot boxes to vote for an Armenian Patriarch. 

THOUGHTS ON JERUSALEM 

Q. What is your reaction to your recent trip to Jerusalem? Did 
you achieve what you had hoped to achieve? 

Of course, I did my graduate studies in the Hebrew University of 
Jerusalem and in the American Institute, which is now called 
Jerusalem Univer sity College. So, I have a special connection 
to the Holy City. Since Vehapar was in America for his 
operation, I decided to pay my first patriarchal visit to the 
Holy City, for quite a few important reasons. First of all, it 
is a city that is holy to three monotheistic religions, and 
within only 11 months' time we shall celebrate the Grand Jubilee 
-- the 2000th anniversary of the birth of our Lord and Savior 
Jesus Christ, whose city was Jerusalem. And again, this era is 
the era of multi-faith and multi-ethnic and pluralistic 
societies and dialogue -- a dialogue of life between people, 
dialogue of faiths, dialogue of cultures, dialogue of nations, 
instead of the clash between civilizations. And, Jerusalem is a 
wonderful place for that. It's a city rich in symbolism. On a 
different note, the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and Istanbul, 
unfortunately, during the last 4 or 5 decades did not have very 
good relations because of many reasons. On the other hand, in 
the 18th century, the relations between the two patriarchates 
were very cordial, which also proved to be a blessing for the 
whole Armenian Church at the time. So, I also wished to re-
establish the good ties between the two patriarchal sees, and 
wanted to visit His Beatitude Archbishop Torkom as my senior 
brother. He also received me in a very cordial manner and, as 
far as we know, for the first time in history, the Patriarchs of 
Istanbul and Jerusalem celebrated Christmas together in 
Bethlehem in anticipation of the year 2000. So, all of this was 
realized during this one visit. I also visited the other 
religious leaders of Jerusalem and all of these highlevel inter-
religious dialogue meetings were blessed with success. I think 
that the reasons for which I visited Jerusalem were justified, 
and I am very happy that my first official visit as a Patriarch 
overseas was blessed with success. Now, my second official visit 
will be to Etchmiadzin, when Vehapar returns to his See. Only 
afterwards, I believe, will I begin visiting some of the 
dioceses in the Diaspora, when Primates extend invitations. 

Q. From what you witnessed in Jerusalem, could you compare and 
contrast the two communities -- the Armenian community of 
Jerusalem and that of Istanbul? 

A. Yes, first of all, the Armenian community of Jerusalem is of 
course very small. Less than 2500 people in all of Israel, but, 
I would say, they are divided into three different political 
parties -- different clubs, different "agoumps," but it's at 
least good that they have one school in which they all study. 
What was a source of happiness for me was that almost all of the 
young people speak Armenian. Jerusalem is a community with four 
languages because almost everybody speaks Armenian, English, 
Arabic and Hebrew to get by. I'm always shocked when I go to 
Jerusalem because I don't see any popular pietism in a city that 
is holy for all Christians and other religions. You don't see 
Jerusalem Armenians in the church -- even on the occasions of 
high feasts in the church calendar -- compared to the Syrian 
Orthodox community, for example, who are present in the 
liturgies with almost all the members of the community. As 
during the patriarchal entrance to the Church of Nativity in 
Bethlehem, apart from the 50 Istanbul Armenian pilgrims who went 
there with us, I could count only about 15 Jerusalem Armenians. 
And, I was shocked. I was shocked. On the other hand, Istanbul, 
traditionally, is a city that is unique not only in the Middle 
East, but all of the Diaspora; it is the only place where there 
is an ecole of pieties. People may be not so informed in 
classical Armenian or church history, maybe even the holy 
scriptures; however -- whether they are native Istanbulians, or 
from the provinces in the East, whether they are Armenian-
speaking people, or simply Turkish speakers who don't understand 
a word of Armenian -- you will see that, especially in the 
central parishes, the churches are full, even on a simple 
Sunday. A regular Sunday -- not high feast day. For example, 
during this period of Great Lent, not only on Sundays, but every 
single day the churches will be full to the street gates for the 
services of "Arevakal" and "Hsgoom." You can't see that in 
Armenia, you can't see that anywhere else in the Diaspora. So, 
that's a peculiarity of Istanbul, which is not a holy city, 
which is not holy for three monotheistic religions, where the 
community is not speaking four languages, but just one -- 
Turkish and some Armenian -- but the strength and the 
spirituality of the church is at the highest. And, I think that 
has to be studied as to why it's that way. I presume, coming 
from the depth of history, social-psychological reasons, and 
also the fact that the great scholars and great preachers of the 
"Armache Ecole" (Armash School) who had a great impact on the 
spirituality of the community a hundred years ago. Also, the 
fact that in the Diaspora it is mostly Istanbul Armenians who 
are serving in the churches in America and in Europe, -- "tbrats 
tasses," the choirs, "diratzous," in the churches are mainly 
Armenians from Istanbul. You get more recruits in these groups 
from Istanbul. There must be a reason behind it; there must be 
an explanation. I think that it is the impact that the Armache 
leaders, the preachers, the teachers of doctrines made on the 
community in the beginning of the century. 

PATRIARCH'S MESSAGE 

Q. In closing, what is your message to our community? 

A. First, I like to ask you all to forgive me for sounding so 
monotonous -- I am still experiencing an extreme jet lag. 

To the community at large, I would like to extend my best wishes 
for their family life, for their community life. I would advise 
them to reap the benefits of living in this blessed and free 
country. On the one hand, to prosper, to have blessed, large, 
nice families; on the other hand, I would ask them to pay full 
allegiance to their heritage, to what has been handed down from 
our forefathers -- the spiritual wealth, the moral strength -- 
which is embodied in our Church today. There are many Christian 
churches in this country, there are many ways of worship, and 
there are many ways of approaching the Bible. But what is 
Armenian -- what has been handed down to us by the Armenian 
monks, by our Armenian fathers of the past -- is for us, is 
ours, and if we stop experiencing, if we stop patronizing this 
heritage, no one else will. This is a language; this is a 
church; this is a tradition; this is a culture that is ours. And 
an Englishman, a Frenchman, a Turk, an Arab, a Jew, with due 
respect to all of them, will not keep our heritage, will not 
adhere to our Church, will not live according to our tradition. 
It is us, and us only, who can keep these things going. So, I 
would ask, especially the new generation, to have a feeling of 
belonging to these values, and not to keep these values only as 
something they have to carry along with them by a mandate, 
because they have to, but I would ask them to experience deeply 
the spirituality of these values. Let them be like the air they 
breathe in and out, let them be like the blood that circulates 
in their veins, and this way they will be able to live them out 
as naturally as possible and to extend them to the next 
generation -- to their children. I pray and wish that this will 
be made possible in their lives. 


  

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